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Jo Cook - The What, Why and How of Formative Assessment in the Virtual Classroom

 

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[Jo Cook] 17:15:24
So let's have a look at this now.

[Jo Cook] 17:15:27
Thank you for the lovely introduction from Robin.

[Jo Cook] 17:15:30
We do have sunrise officially in the UK now, which is lovely whereas I know for a lot of you it would be the end of your day. And we're coming from all around the world.

[Jo Cook] 17:15:39
I've run light bulb moments for nearly 10 years now and we've specialize in live online learning, and I wouldn't be anywhere if I didn't have Mike with me he's in the chat today Hello, David, thank you very much for that as well.

[Jo Cook] 17:15:51
Mike is my producer He's my business partner he's also my brother, but we promise not to argue today in front of all of you. So we're going to jump straight into this session, it's going to be very hands on and love to know from you, please.

[Jo Cook] 17:16:05
What do you think, what do you know that formative assessment is so let's jump straight into that chat window, and get typing maybe your fingers are really tired already, but we're going to have one last blast, as we go into the session today so please

[Jo Cook] 17:16:22
let me know. What do you think, what do you know what do you understand formative assessment to be. That's what I'd like to know from you.

[Jo Cook] 17:16:33
So David is straight in there and says monitor and provide feedback that is a great answer David I'm loving that what are the answers are Cheryl.

[Jo Cook] 17:16:44
That's cheating David, but okay fair enough. And you've provided there's some good information anyway I Kim says it's like a knowledge check. Absolutely.

[Jo Cook] 17:16:56
And this is a really good example of that I'm kind of stopping and going, Well, What is it that you know about formative assessment, rather than me just launching in and telling you so that's a really good comment Kim.

[Jo Cook] 17:17:14
What else have we got Christine says is part checking and monitoring and part skill building. I really like that Christine because it's kind of going along that whole learning journey and encompassing different things.

[Jo Cook] 17:17:37
because formative assessment isn't just one thing, actually it's a number of things that will come will come to in just a second. So really good answer on that, and answers assessment, while you are learning, and it shapes or forms you along the way heads

[Jo Cook] 17:17:46
performative I really like that and that's lovely. And I really like that point about shaping and forming you along the way because that learning journey that's part of it and if we don't have that information that assessment, where we can't actually

[Jo Cook] 17:18:00
do any of the filming with or for our learners, they certainly can't do it themselves.

[Jo Cook] 17:18:06
And he says checking in a longer journey absolutely it is.

[Jo Cook] 17:18:09
And, and Lisa says formative assessment is the way of collecting assessment evidence that enables the assessor to measure a learner's progress toward assessment and is important to do before deciding when a learner is ready for the summative assessment

[Jo Cook] 17:18:25
which is graded really important point Lisa. And to that point Cheryl was making at the end of her session about kind of when you're in a university for instance and doing those kind of three.

[Jo Cook] 17:18:36
Three assessments three essays in three hours, you know we we need to be ready for that before we jump into that assessment. Otherwise, we might fail and we don't want that so we need to be ready for it.

[Jo Cook] 17:18:49
That's a really good point. And if we think about that then in a workplace setting, well we don't want somebody taking an assessment in order to be able to sell a new product for instance, if they fail the compliance that's got implications.

[Jo Cook] 17:19:02
So we need to be ready for that that's a great answer.

[Jo Cook] 17:19:07
Cheryl has been kicked out of our office space okay bye Cheryl Thank you. And Mike is commenting to Christine, he loves the skill building element, and we try and think about when the person sits down at their desk or gets back to the actual work not

[Jo Cook] 17:19:23
learning which is a type of work. What skills have we given them to do that that's a really good extra thing in there for Michael.

[Jo Cook] 17:19:32
So thank you very much for that. Really great answers for everybody. This is what Wikipedia says of formative assessment. And I think there are several really important parts here.

[Jo Cook] 17:19:44
And I'm going to highlight those in pink for you. Because if the formative assessment needs to be continuous that's a really strong element.

[Jo Cook] 17:19:54
It's also about that checking learner progress which you've all highlighted really really well.

[Jo Cook] 17:20:00
And there's a third part, which is actually about us as facilitators. It's about the effectiveness of their own practice so it's about making sure that we can do things really well.

[Jo Cook] 17:20:13
Now what I've got for you at the end micro share a link, it's got a copies. It's got more detail about everything we do. It's also got all the links to all the quotes that I'm going to share so we've got a resource for you right the end of the section.

[Jo Cook] 17:20:26
So, these things from Wikipedia are actually giving us our agenda today we're going to be looking at how we continuously get this feedback live online, the ways that we can check our progress of our learner, and also developing our own virtual practice.

[Jo Cook] 17:20:44
And please ask questions as we go we've got that fabulous chat window. It's one of my favorite virtual tools, I will talk about it more later on, so feel free to ask questions, make comments, make suggestions share ideas as we go.

[Jo Cook] 17:20:58
So, our very first topic we know our focus should always First of all, be on our learners, and that's where we're going to start Wikipedia has the continuous element, which is in our, in our teaching and in our learning process, and I'd like you to put

[Jo Cook] 17:21:19
a little bit more in chat about that. So, what my, the continuous checks and balances be online what might you do in your virtual classroom when you're thinking right, I need to check in with my learners, something quick something easy or or something

[Jo Cook] 17:21:37
else a little bit more of an activity something a bit longer.

[Jo Cook] 17:21:41
a little bit more of an activity something a bit longer. What might those continuous checks and balances be

[Jo Cook] 17:21:48
well might maybe add some ideas and chat, please.

[Jo Cook] 17:21:55
You guys are coming up with some good answers already.

[Jo Cook] 17:22:01
So David says, Ask questions that is absolutely the easiest, quickest best way to do it in some fashion, or other. We need to ask questions. And that's one of my favorite things to do in any kind of training session is to get people involved that's a

[Jo Cook] 17:22:20
really strong theme in all of our work, a process pose and Penny says polling Absolutely. And as Tara was talking about and certainly in terms of the summative assessment or something much more formal or a test or compliance related having those tests

[Jo Cook] 17:22:36
or exams are really important, but also as she said, we can do an anonymous poll within a session and kind of go over the grief of really not getting this or some are and some are, and then we can do with that information going forward.

[Jo Cook] 17:22:51
So love those Ralph says asked for opinions and I really like that you you word it that way Ralph because opinions are different from fact checking. So this is how do you feel about this, what do you think about this, how could it work for you, all of

[Jo Cook] 17:23:06
those different things, broaden out your conversation, and you get different information back. So thank you for that and Ralph you've got your webcam on and I can see you nodding which is absolutely lovely, lovely smile as well thank you Ralph bedroom

[Jo Cook] 17:23:22
says, interactive and mentee I'm assuming you maybe mean minty meter there but chrome and if you don't please let me know in chat, but yeah it's making things interactive all the way through.

[Jo Cook] 17:23:33
A really important.

[Jo Cook] 17:23:35
You know, lectures if you think of university style lectures or presentations, they serve a purpose, but they don't necessarily help with recall but remembering with understanding and different things so that interaction point is really important and

[Jo Cook] 17:23:50
Bitcoin says yes it could be meant to me to slide Oh, aha slides are so many different systems that you can use now, or it could just be, you know, a pole within your platform.

[Jo Cook] 17:24:03
A process welcome life documents like Google Docs love that April, and also what we've got is an option as well. In teams for example you can do the Microsoft version of that so that's really cool to Monica says chat and whiteboard absolutely and lover

[Jo Cook] 17:24:21
a good whiteboard, maybe not when we've got lots of people like today but in a virtual classroom with 10 people, it can be great.

[Jo Cook] 17:24:28
And, and David says teacher skill, when the smart he answers the question correctly. Ask if they're short a David. are you sure about that. Sorry, I had to, I had to use it keeps me up for it, but no David your apps.

[Jo Cook] 17:24:55
I like the idea of making people think, or maybe justify like Tell me why do you think that, how do you know that's the right answer. So some really good stuff in here. And basically what you're saying is, it includes adding in all activities which is

[Jo Cook] 17:25:00
kind of where I'm coming from. So it's everything from that really quick emoji response greentech thumbs up through to collaborating on projects like April said maybe on Google Docs or something similar to that URL on my arrow, and it could be also working

[Jo Cook] 17:25:18
on multiple sessions across blended programs can be really important as well. The key here is that as facilitators, we are getting information that is really important.

[Jo Cook] 17:25:32
Lisa says yes I think that's often not done to ask the learner to give the foundation behind the answer. We usually just nod and go to the next and so you're absolutely right, Lisa.

[Jo Cook] 17:25:44
And that can be for a few reasons. It could be. We're not great at facilitating or we're not kind of experienced at that it could be, you know, especially in terms of virtual delivery maybe it's newer to us maybe we're focusing on how much time have I

[Jo Cook] 17:26:00
got or were you know all these different technologies fake plates spinning, but you're absolutely right what we should be doing is having a much more in depth conversation with people so that's a really great point.

[Jo Cook] 17:26:12
Now, the more you speak without involving people, the less information you have, and the less you can react to their energy, their questions their comments and and that for me is the magic of any kind of training is that reaction.

[Jo Cook] 17:26:27
So I've got another question for you, and this is a poll that is coming up. And, and, hopefully, the poll will launch and show you some questions, because I'd like to know how often should we involve people live online.

[Jo Cook] 17:26:45
So, when the pope comes up, hopefully, if it doesn't, maybe one of the team can let me know if it's not possible, we can always answer in chat.

[Jo Cook] 17:26:56
I'm not saying, there it is. I knew it was so well. Thank you very much. So the poll has loans for you. How often should you plan to interact with the group.

[Jo Cook] 17:27:06
After how many minutes Did you do something. So that could be a thumbs up, it could be something in chat. I'm not really thinking breakout rooms breakout rooms or bigger activities, but something in chat pole exactly like I'm doing right now.

[Jo Cook] 17:27:21
How often should you do that in your virtual session, do you think

[Jo Cook] 17:27:27
David you are definitely on the same wavelength as me.

[Jo Cook] 17:27:33
And David says, if there's no interaction in teaching, then it can be done as a recording, you're absolutely right, it can be PDFs, it can be recording it can be a podcast.

[Jo Cook] 17:27:43
You know, there's no point in coming together live you're not respecting people's time, and you're not making the most of that precious time and you've got with people together.

[Jo Cook] 17:27:54
Okay, so let's end this poll Thank you very much. Let's share the results.

[Jo Cook] 17:27:58
So I can see most of you are saying that three to five minutes a few of you are saying every two minutes.

[Jo Cook] 17:28:06
A few of you are saying six to seven minutes a few less eight to 10 a few less even 11 plus. Now, some of this is going to be dependent on how you interpret the question.

[Jo Cook] 17:28:17
So if you were thinking breakout rooms whiteboard with loads of discussion, maybe you would want to do that every 910 11 minutes.

[Jo Cook] 17:28:26
When I'm thinking about the shorter interactions, we recommend and you've probably meant the same books and blog posts, every three to five minutes. If you put every two minutes to be honest you're on my wavelength.

[Jo Cook] 17:28:48
That's kind of what I aim for is to get people doing something as often as possible, but it needs to be meaningful not just a green tech for the sake of it, but actually to help that learning.

[Jo Cook] 17:28:50
So, if things like bigger activities breakouts they happen less often, but that continuous interaction that we're talking about every few minutes. Now, it might seem like a lot, but what we're doing actually when we live online is replacing what we would

[Jo Cook] 17:29:08
normally do face to face. Normally, we're looking around the room to see and read people's body language, and obviously we can't do that live online, that if we have webcams that's absolutely brilliant they can really help, but the digital body language

[Jo Cook] 17:29:25
we get through people, and what they put in chat, how they answer polls, and so on, is really valuable live online. And it's so valuable that in our train the trainer course, we've actually got a couple of sessions dedicated just to exploring that skill

[Jo Cook] 17:29:41
set.

[Jo Cook] 17:29:42
Let's move on. Now, if you haven't already, you can close that poll.

[Jo Cook] 17:29:46
And let's move on now to having a look at the the checking learner progress point because this is part of that formative assessment definition that we had.

[Jo Cook] 17:29:57
And I really like this description of why we have these informal assessments

[Jo Cook] 17:30:10
assessments that aren't tests, really help our learners get involved with the topic and develop their learning through activities through trial and error.

[Jo Cook] 17:30:20
And somebody said earlier on it might have been April, said about you know doing this before you get to that formal summative assessment. David says I'm thinking that about that for live courses watch these videos before you come to the course, then we

[Jo Cook] 17:30:36
can discuss in the group. Absolutely and I see Mike is put some stuff in chat there, where I think he's saying that we've done a lot of that we've we haven't in our courses, flipped the classroom, it's not entirely here's all the content, then the sections

[Jo Cook] 17:30:50
are all about kind of activity, but we'll certainly what we've done is that blended approach was like well here's a video here's an article. He's a something to contribute to we happen to use a tablet you could use something else.

[Jo Cook] 17:31:03
So then we get a lot of that content out so that we're not just lecturing you in a session because that's boring, quite frankly, but also a lot of people will want to kind of take it in and think and reflect and maybe find out a bit more or watch the

[Jo Cook] 17:31:17
video again kind of going, sorry what.

[Jo Cook] 17:31:20
And you can't do that when you're alive, but then when you come to the section if somebody wants to video read something done a bit of thinking. Then you in a much better place to really deepen and extend that learning so thank you for sharing that David.

[Jo Cook] 17:31:35
So let's think about this a little bit more. What are some of the informal assessment activities that you do in your virtual training sessions and if you're not quite doing virtual yet or very much, it could be face to face as well.

[Jo Cook] 17:31:48
But what are some of the informal assessment activities that you do so let's share those in chat to remember this is informal This is formative assessment.

[Jo Cook] 17:31:58
It's not a big test, but it's a way of you kind of going, I need to know what they know I need to find out where they are.

[Jo Cook] 17:32:15
So what are some of the activities you might do it could be a general idea.

[Jo Cook] 17:32:21
Or it could be a specific example that you might have.

[Jo Cook] 17:32:26
So for example, one of the things that we like doing our whiteboard swim lanes. So a swim lane is just a table that we've made in PowerPoint and we have a table with a number of rows for the number of people, and it just gives everyone a space on that

[Jo Cook] 17:32:41
whiteboard to go and write an answer so they put their name in one side, they put their answer to the question on the other side, there's a little bit of subtle pressure to say we've got 10 people, 10 rows, put your name in, you've got to share something,

[Jo Cook] 17:32:57
but I do always make sure to say you can put don't know if you're not sure you know we don't want too much pressure and stress on people.

[Jo Cook] 17:33:03
So that's one of the things that we like doing. I Kim says I use questions in chat a lot Yes I'm doing that today, partly we're in kind of webinar mode with lots of people rather than on meeting lots of times, but I think that's really important Kim chat

[Jo Cook] 17:33:18
is one of, I think one of the most underused and underappreciated virtual tools that we have. And I know that on our train the trainer course I remember one lady who was kind of like, I'm okay with virtual, it's fine we're going to do it I'm not not in

[Jo Cook] 17:33:33
love with it, but it's cool.

[Jo Cook] 17:33:36
And by the end of our course she's come away going, Wow, chat is amazing. It's so rich we can do so much, it's got so much it can do more than what we would do face to face and she became a real advocate for it.

[Jo Cook] 17:33:50
So Kim I love that you shared that Ralph says overhead questions around I'm assuming what you mean by that, is you're asking that to the whole group for someone to answer, and you're nodding there thank you very much, rather than Ralph Tell me about this.

[Jo Cook] 17:34:08
I'm putting you on the spot that is not an overhead question. And so I really like that it's a question to the whole group, and they're the ones on us probably most often.

[Jo Cook] 17:34:16
And this point about every three to five minutes. What I'm offering what I'm saying with the three to five minute interaction. Is it should be planned as your question just like this one is you know I've got a slide for it it's a planned question, but

[Jo Cook] 17:34:30
it should be an opportunity for anyone and everyone to get involved if they want to that's that overhead question really good Ralph Beckham says raise hands asking questions absolutely bit chrome so that could be, you know, click the raise hand icon,

[Jo Cook] 17:34:43
if you've got a question, if you've got a comment if I can clarify something for you. So that's a really important point. Kim says mentees also great yes minty meter, aha slide slow down euro my co pilot jam board, all of those different tools, depending

[Jo Cook] 17:34:58
on what you need them for and how you use them but any of those external tools can be really good to mix things up, especially if you're in platforms such as teams, which is a lot more limited in what you can do, especially if you've got external guests.

[Jo Cook] 17:35:14
You know you can't use whiteboards and stuff like that for external guests are those tools are brilliant Kim.

[Jo Cook] 17:35:26
I came out so I use a lot of different platforms and chat is the one tool I can rely on that everyone can access, love that Kim. And we even with that though, we still have to be a bit careful.

[Jo Cook] 17:35:32
So for instance if we use something like crowd cast.

[Jo Cook] 17:35:36
Or if we use something like zoom like today, we have to be really careful actually because if somebody is watching the recording, you don't get to see the chat window.

[Jo Cook] 17:35:46
At the same time, or something like WebEx and Adobe Connect, you get to see those I think WebEx you have to turn it on. But you do get to see that chat, so I can't just say, Great point.

[Jo Cook] 17:35:55
Kim, I have to read that out so that somebody watching the recording can see it and says, How do you ensure you're getting responses from a wide range of people.

[Jo Cook] 17:36:05
When using things like chat. That's a really good question and.

[Jo Cook] 17:36:11
And in a webinar environment like today where I don't know you haven't got any kind of information beforehand. We haven't had any relationship anything like that.

[Jo Cook] 17:36:21
That's a little bit more difficult and I just kind of have to hope that I'm answering asking the right questions. I'm engaging you in a way that people want to get involved.

[Jo Cook] 17:36:31
And, but what we do when we're thinking about this from a learning perspective with a virtual classroom with fewer people, it's partly about giving people the option.

[Jo Cook] 17:36:40
So you might not be very good at typing you might be dyslexic, you might just not like doing that so it's giving people the option to unmute, for example, to be able to do that.

[Jo Cook] 17:36:57
You know when I have a chat question, an absolute minimum in my facilitator guide is three minutes to ask the question for you to think in type, type write out your answers, and for me to summarize those and comment on them.

[Jo Cook] 17:37:12
At the moment I'm allowing four or five minutes for these questions and my producer Mike is about to tell me that I'm overtime on this. That's not the same a slave to the time, but, you know, we have to allow the time so I think that's part of it as well.

[Jo Cook] 17:37:26
And as Mike says a producer can be really handy for this. So your producer or co facilitator might notice her Bob hasn't answered anything in chat.

[Jo Cook] 17:37:36
In the last half an hour. So it could be rather than that overhead question that Ralph said it could be used an appropriate technique to bring those people in, so I'm not saying, Hey Bob, I haven't heard from you type in chat right now.

[Jo Cook] 17:37:50
That would be me, but it could be things like Hey Bob Alice and he hadn't had so much from you today. If you want to add in chats and thoughts or comments or questions that would be great.

[Jo Cook] 17:38:00
And to do things like that, then yes you're right, David, Bob is always like that.

[Jo Cook] 17:38:05
And I think there's a conversation going on between and Mike so I will leave that unless I need to pick something up on that, which is another great thing having a producer, because basically I'm saying to Mike, I'm ignoring that bit unless you tell me

[Jo Cook] 17:38:18
in private chat that I need to read it out. So that's what Mike is hearing hopefully when I say that.

[Jo Cook] 17:38:25
Okay. So, obviously, we do our informal assessments with all of these interactions all of these activities and our sessions.

[Jo Cook] 17:38:35
And this could stretch to the informal activities as part of a longer program, or what gets on a learning internet social channel that you might have.

[Jo Cook] 17:38:44
It could be coaching, it could be reflection, and so on, all of those things are really kind of important.

[Jo Cook] 17:38:52
And, and virtual is really rich for these activities, when you want to get people involved easily, and I absolutely did not miss the point that leave earlier on saying, am I the only one that finds my rope very distracting and leave some people will say

[Jo Cook] 17:39:09
the same about chat for instance as well. But you're absolutely right. For some people it's going to be distracting for other people, it's going to be engaging.

[Jo Cook] 17:39:18
And there's a little bit about using the right tech where do you pitch it for your topic for your audience and so on.

[Jo Cook] 17:39:26
And I find my role and mural, as I'm really big tools, and they can do an awful lot. And you have to be really laser focused in what you teach people if they haven't used it before, and how you set it up to make it as, what's the word I'm looking for,

[Jo Cook] 17:39:44
to reduce that distraction as much as possible. But the reason people use them, is they're amazing tools and you can do so much. And so it is about finding that right tool and being able to pitch it right for your for people and that's that's a package

[Jo Cook] 17:40:00
as you're saying, but also maybe there's a part as a learner where it's our responsibility to say, I'm going to focus on what I do want to have a look at.

[Jo Cook] 17:40:10
I listen and learn and maybe the chat and worry about mural and Mayra later unless it's an activity.

[Jo Cook] 17:40:16
Okay, so we've got the chat window we've talked about we know whiteboard activities means everyone can see in a virtual classroom. It's not just the people sitting at the front of a, of a physical classroom, you can see the whiteboard for instance or

[Jo Cook] 17:40:31
you can see the flip chart and breakouts mean, people get to discuss amongst themselves. And I can move between them to offer support.

[Jo Cook] 17:40:41
Excuse me, it's nice to have sip of coffee it's early here remember. So depending on the tech you use obviously and things like breakout rooms, you can move around you can see everybody's working and output as well.

[Jo Cook] 17:40:53
Now the very last topic we need to look at is the effectiveness of our own practice and I think I saw a point from David about it's an amazing skill to monitor the chat was also presenting and keeping on track.

[Jo Cook] 17:41:08
I'll be honest, David, Mike is telling me in the background, how much time I've got a bit from from the support team as route Labs is telling me that as well.

[Jo Cook] 17:41:16
So it's really important to have the people around you to help you. Now this is a really great point about why we do these checks from a facilitator perspective.

[Jo Cook] 17:41:28
so I'll let you read that for a second.

[Jo Cook] 17:41:35
What we're also thinking about here is that we can check our design our delivery. Our facilitation. It gives us feedback, so that we can update our materials, we can look at further learning options and consider our own development needs as well.

[Jo Cook] 17:41:54
And all of those things are really important. So we've got a variety of different things to help you along with, if you want to share some tips in in chat as well about how you develop your skills you're welcome to what we've got is a blog with lots of

[Jo Cook] 17:42:08
content and there's an article in there.

[Jo Cook] 17:42:12
On today's topics if you go to light bulb moment dot info.

[Jo Cook] 17:42:15
You'll have a blog in there about the formative assessment. We've also got a community that you can join completely free completely open. And if you've got any Virtual Learning questions, and there's loads of free resources on there at light bulb moment

[Jo Cook] 17:42:29
community. And lastly, we offer virtual classroom train the trainer. If your team needs support, and that's on lightbulb moment, don't online.

[Jo Cook] 17:42:38
So we've got loads of resources, but I'd like to pause here we've got just a couple of minutes, where I can answer any questions that have come through and David says it's interesting people often ask me how I knew that Bob was not understanding what

[Jo Cook] 17:42:52
I was covering and David, I'm sure that what you're going to ask Next is the way that you know that is because what you're doing is you're taking all of that, informal formative assessment all of those activities where you're going, huh baloney put a

[Jo Cook] 17:43:07
couple of words in chat Where's everybody else has written a paragraph, and all of those things are helping you to read that digital body language of people's that's a great comment.

[Robin Petterd - Host] 17:43:17
So, what questions do we have I think we've got a couple of minutes left before I hand back to Robin and Robin, am I right in thinking on the very last session today have you saved the best to last is that what you've done Robin.

[Robin Petterd - Host] 17:43:30
No, he says the best ally lot last year.

[Jo Cook] 17:43:35
We've had Louis we have another breakout room to do after this and then we're wrapping up with a futuristic look at the assessment tool that they actually interesting as well.

[Robin Petterd - Host] 17:43:51
That was actually interesting as well. On one of the things in the gonna hop on a high note, and that person is coming in from AD, it's coming from in from South Africa.

[Jo Cook] 17:44:03
Now, it's national.

[Robin Petterd - Host] 17:44:09
Start the off topic Joe competitive on topic. What's the summative assessments of using virtual classrooms.

[Jo Cook] 17:44:12
And I think that summative assessments need to go. Always back to what is it that people are learning and what are they using it for so the compliance examples are really good one, is if we've launched a new product, and people need to pass a compliance

[Jo Cook] 17:44:26
test in order to be able to sell it. Well, that could be meant to me to my arrow slideshow. It could be pen and paper, quite frankly, and hand it to your manager.

[Jo Cook] 17:44:35
So it's really about the, the need for that rather than how do we do it in a virtual classroom.

[Jo Cook] 17:44:43
But what I'm seeing in more things. It's about the performance about what people do, and less about necessarily the test so it depends on what it is that people are doing Penny's asked a great question do ID brief with the lovely Mike light bulb after

[Jo Cook] 17:44:59
sessions I'm not trying to call him lovely.

[Jo Cook] 17:45:02
She is lovely. And yes, absolutely, we do. And so often it ends up with Mike telling me you did this wrong, it did that wrong, he could do that better I didn't like that slide.

[Jo Cook] 17:45:14
But the point is he notices things that I don't notice because I'm in in the flow of things and I've got my facilitator guide and all of these different things.

[Jo Cook] 17:45:24
So, especially if we've got classes with people's webcams on your sort of say well where do you have that slide up or when you ask that question everybody kind of side, or whatever it is, he might notice those things that I don't.

[Jo Cook] 17:45:36
So from that point of view, he's a really great person to debrief with.

[Jo Cook] 17:45:40
And I think I'm at time. So Robin, I'm going to leave it there and I'd like to say thank you to Robin thank you to the team. And I think we should give the whole team, a huge round of applause.

[Jo Cook] 17:45:51
And you can do that in chat, you can do that with your with your reactions if you want to, because I think they've done an absolutely fabulous job. Thank you so much.

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